That Feminist Gamer Girl Did a Thing (DERAILED)

[jkid101094]

She apparently played people for saps. I'm not surprised but disappointed.

[Hakudamashi]

I really don't understand why this dissinance between male and female still prevails.

Buut yeah, people with social agendas forcing their beliefs on a hobby they don't even like...

[shadowDOESrock]

So, recently the NPD reported that Hardcore players make up 20 percent of gamers, Light Core 24 percent, and Casual players compose 56 percent. Gamers are evenly split with 51 percent men and 49 percent women.
The Key here is that the large majority of Casual players are female.

Now, we all know the most common complaints

- Women are not being taken seriously in game development
- Women are often sexualised or relegated to secondary characters
- There are not as many hardcore female players because said games directly target the straight male

Do I think moves like Samus in SSB4 are clearly sexist? Yeah. Do I think it is big of an issue as it is made out to be? Not really.
I actually dont like female characters sexualised, unless it makes sense in context (Zero Suit Samus).

I also can't help but to notice that female characters really are often relegated as secondary characters, or if they're in the lead role often are sexualised with rare exceptions.

As for women not being taken seriously in game development / journalism...
While I'm not in the business, I highly, very highly doubt they're not being taken seriously.
We're not in the 60s.

I'm going to sound like a dick here, but I'm assuming most reports are coming from females not getting their articles published / game pitches greenlit / job application accepted, similary to the 90s (and stil going) group of black people who blame all their issues on white people.

On the other hand, reports like the E3 Afterparty being strippers going all out, do seem make a light on bigger issues around.

Anyhow, it also undeniable that most games target the generic straight male, with rare exceptions like Remember Me and what not. Guns, explosions, big men punching each other. You get the idea. There are a few games that were explained to me as 'gender-neutral' - most of which seem to come from Nintendo, like Pokemon and Zelda. I can clearly see why this would be.

Now, I disagree mostly with Anita Sarkeesian, but that's mainly because the examples she uses are just plain horrible and stupid....
but she does have a point most of the time.

One other thing - are men not just as sexualised? How often do we get a not uber-hot, muscular pretty boy as main character?

Is it really wrong for these games to target the generic straight male, when the majority of consumers are just that? Or is exactly that the issue?

Honestly, I dont even know what to exactly write here. I just hope to get a proper discussion going.
I already know Winds' take on this, but what is your guys' take on this?

[Elija2]

- Women are not being taken seriously in game development

This is unfortunately true. There was a Twitter campaign a few years ago where women working in the games industry spoke out about their terrible experiences. These aren't people hoping for a job in the industry, these are people who have been working in the industry for years.

- Women are often sexualised or relegated to secondary characters

This is also true. I think Anita's videos do a good job of pointing out examples of sexism in games. And men aren't sexualized nearly as much as women in games. Having an attractive character isn't sexist, but having a character whose only purpose is to be sexy is.

- There are not as many hardcore female players because said games directly target the straight male

Again, this is true. Not that there is anything wrong with targeting straight males, but a little diversity is always nice. Games like Grand Theft Auto and Assassin's Creed don't need to solely target males. It would help if there were more female game designers working on these games.

[Hakudamashi]

Well you know me, I think it's a complete non-issue.

If it really upsets people, then the market will change to suit the needs of the audience.

If it were a real issue like the fight for gay rights and racism and the witch hunts, then things woulda changed a long time ago(which they have).

[Elija2]

Well you know me, I think it's a complete non-issue.

If it really upsets people, then the market will change to suit the needs of the audience.

If it were a real issue like the fight for gay rights and racism and the witch hunts, then things woulda changed a long time ago(which they have).

You don't think that women being harassed in the industry is a problem? You don't think that the sexism in videogames themselves is a problem?

And why do you think people are making a big deal out of it? Raising awareness of the issues is the only way for change to begin.

[Hakudamashi]

You don't think that women being harassed in the industry is a problem? You don't think that the sexism in videogames themselves is a problem?

And why do you think people are making a big deal out of it? Raising awareness of the issues is the only way for change to begin.

People being harassed anywhere is an issue
Sexism in and of itself is an issue

Raising awareness is one thing, but there's a right and wrong way to go about everything, and I am simply do not have the information to join in this act of change. From where I am standing, video games seem to be at the same level of everything else in the entertainment industry.

The change will happen when the people want it to happen, forcing it will only result in an equally harsh backlash.

[Elija2]

People being harassed anywhere is an issue
Sexism in and of itself is an issue

Raising awareness is one thing, but there's a right and wrong way to go about everything, and I am simply do not have the information to join in this act of change. From where I am standing, video games seem to be at the same level of everything else in the entertainment industry.

The change will happen when the people want it to happen, forcing it will only result in an equally harsh backlash.

Yes, sexism is an issue everywhere, but that shouldn't stop people from speaking up about it specifically in regards to videogames.

People want the change to happen now, that's why they're speaking up about it. I fail to see how doing this will result in a backlash.

[Hakudamashi]

Yes, sexism is an issue everywhere, but that shouldn't stop people from speaking up about it specifically in regards to videogames.

People want the change to happen now, that's why they're speaking up about it. I fail to see how doing this will result in a backlash.

It's a business, and it needs to make money.
It's target audience are straight white males, so they make games for straight white males.
From what little I know of what's  going on, that vibe I'm getting is that these straight white males are being told to fuck off and let these other people in, rather than to be more accepting of diversity.
I.E. instead of asking for a coexistence of sexualised girls and the proper girls, the message instead is to stomp out all that to make way for what a group of people feel is right. That's a takeover, not a compromise, and those never end well.

Another factor as to why I'm not joining this "fight" as it were, is that I find this movement very biased against itself and unfocused.
Whenever I hear of this, I hear people screaming about all the bad examples of women in video games, but hardly any of the good examples.
I'll hear mention of Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball and not Dead or Alive the fighting game.
I'll hear mention of Princess Peach being a total tool, but no mention of Chie Satonaka.

How can you go on a movement demanding more of something, when you don't even acknowledge what you already have?

Personally, I think that should be done, is first of all bringing to light all the video games that do characters justice, then afterwards encourage more females to join in the game industry.

[Elija2]

It's a business, and it needs to make money.
It's target audience are straight white males, so they make games for straight white males.

Games that target straight white males don't have to be sexist. And if you're condoning continued misogyny in videogames so that your games can sell more, that's terrible from both a business standpoint and an ethical standpoint. I mean, if someone refuses to buy a game because there are strong female characters in it, then that person is a dumbass.

From what little I know of what's  going on, that vibe I'm getting is that these straight white males are being told to fuck off and let these other people in, rather than to be more accepting of diversity.
I.E. instead of asking for a coexistence of sexualised girls and the proper girls, the message instead is to stomp out all that to make way for what a group of people feel is right. That's a takeover, not a compromise, and those never end well.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Why would anyone want both bad female characters and good female characters? Note that nobody is saying that attractive female characters are bad.

Another factor as to why I'm not joining this "fight" as it were, is that I find this movement very biased against itself and unfocused.
Whenever I hear of this, I hear people screaming about all the bad examples of women in video games, but hardly any of the good examples.
I'll hear mention of Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball and not Dead or Alive the fighting game.
I'll hear mention of Princess Peach being a total tool, but no mention of Chie Satonaka.

How can you go on a movement demanding more of something, when you don't even acknowledge what you already have?

Personally, I think that should be done, is first of all bringing to light all the video games that do characters justice, then afterwards encourage more females to join in the game industry.

Why should people scream about the good examples? Nobody is denying that there are good female characters in videogames, but the amount of bad female characters hugely outnumbers them. Saying that we should talk about the good characters instead is just being dismissive. If someone says "Sonic 06 sucks ass", you don't respond with "But the Genesis games are good! Let's talk about those instead!" We know they're good, but don't try to change the subject.

And you've still said nothing about the real women working in the industry who are being harassed. Is that a non-issue to you because it happens everywhere?

[Hakudamashi]

Games that target straight white males don't have to be sexist. And if you're condoning continued misogyny in videogames so that your games can sell more, that's terrible from both a business standpoint and an ethical standpoint. I mean, if someone refuses to buy a game because there are strong female characters in it, then that person is a dumbass.

A game being sexist comes from the writer, maybe he was pressured to do it from the publisher, or maybe that's what he felt comfortable talking about, we don't know, what I do know is that I don't buy games like that cause I find them annoying, and the gameplay tends to be not that great too.

And why would someone be a dumbass for not wanting to play a game like that? It's his/her preference and his/her money.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Why would anyone want both bad female characters and good female characters? Note that nobody is saying that attractive female characters are bad.

For the same reason people play bad games like Ride to Hell Retribution I guess. Maybe they want to laugh at it with buddies, or maybe to grow a better appreciation for the good games. Maybe by keeping the bad people can be reminded of what not to do, or maybe it's a guilty pleasure for some people that like poorly written shit.

Why should people scream about the good examples?

I'd imagine for the same reason good examples are normally given, to present a proper alternative, or to better explain why a bad thing is bad. I believe that when telling the "Do nots", you should also tell the "Dos" so that people can have a better understanding of what exactly is wrong, and what can be improved on. To only complain about what's wrong, to me, comes off as whiney.

Nobody is denying that there are good female characters in videogames, but the amount of bad female characters hugely outnumbers them.

I'm truly sorry if I come off insensitive, but that applies to almost everything. With more and more games being made, that more likely means the good will become harder to find. Like movies, for every 10 popcorn action flick that uses every cliche' and seterotype in the book, you get that one masterpiece that knocks your socks off.

Saying that we should talk about the good characters instead is just being dismissive.

I'm sorry I gave that impression, I meant to say that we should speak about the good as much as the bad, if nothing else than to remind people that videogames are not a misogynistic culture.

If someone says "Sonic 06 sucks ass", you don't respond with "But the Genesis games are good! Let's talk about those instead!" We know they're good, but don't try to change the subject.

Well first of all, why bring up Sonic 06 when Sonic Team hasn't made that big of a flop in a long time, secondly, I wouldn't mention the Genesis games as I'm pretty meh about those, I'd more bring up Sonic Unleashed or Lost world to show that 3D Sonic can still work.
And it's not exactly changing the subject since I don't know the context, for all we know it coulda been a discussion about Sonic Team in general and there's that one Negative Nancy that won't shut up about Sonic 06, yes, we get that it's bad, but in 2014 you're really just beating a dead horse and it can get on some people's nerves.

And you've still said nothing about the real women working in the industry who are being harassed. Is that a non-issue to you because it happens everywhere?

I've said nothing about it cause I know nothing about it.
What I do know is that harassment in general is not a good thing wherever it happens, and I'm also under the impression that there's also a legal system in place to deal with that sort of thing, and I won't even dare to ask why not just fire the harrassers.

[Elija2]

A game being sexist comes from the writer, maybe he was pressured to do it from the publisher, or maybe that's what he felt comfortable talking about, we don't know, what I do know is that I don't buy games like that cause I find them annoying, and the gameplay tends to be not that great too.

And why would someone be a dumbass for not wanting to play a game like that? It's his/her preference and his/her money.

You think that a publisher pressured a developer to make a sexist game? Or that the writers just felt comfortable writing sexist characters? Uhh...yeah, maybe in extreme cases like Duke Nukem but I doubt that's happening most of the time. Most likely the writers just don't know that they're being sexist. That's why people are raising awareness so that developers will know better in the future.

You don't think that someone avoiding a game just because it has strong female characters is bad?

For the same reason people play bad games like Ride to Hell Retribution I guess. Maybe they want to laugh at it with buddies, or maybe to grow a better appreciation for the good games. Maybe by keeping the bad people can be reminded of what not to do, or maybe it's a guilty pleasure for some people that like poorly written shit.

There will always be schlock games out there, but that's not what games should be trying to be. If you're trying to make a good game (as most developers are) then you should be avoiding sexist tropes.

I'd imagine for the same reason good examples are normally given, to present a proper alternative, or to better explain why a bad thing is bad. I believe that when telling the "Do nots", you should also tell the "Dos" so that people can have a better understanding of what exactly is wrong, and what can be improved on. To only complain about what's wrong, to me, comes off as whiney.

But people do do this. The Feminist Frequency videos for example do show a few good examples in each video.

I'm truly sorry if I come off insensitive, but that applies to almost everything. With more and more games being made, that more likely means the good will become harder to find. Like movies, for every 10 popcorn action flick that uses every cliche' and seterotype in the book, you get that one masterpiece that knocks your socks off.

So? As I said, just because it's a problem everywhere doesn't mean it's not worth discussing solely in the context of videogames. And either way, you don't think that we should be trying to reduce the number of clichés and stereotypes in our media? Why would you not want more "masterpieces"?

Well first of all, why bring up Sonic 06 when Sonic Team hasn't made that big of a flop in a long time, secondly, I wouldn't mention the Genesis games as I'm pretty meh about those, I'd more bring up Sonic Unleashed or Lost world to show that 3D Sonic can still work.
And it's not exactly changing the subject since I don't know the context, for all we know it coulda been a discussion about Sonic Team in general and there's that one Negative Nancy that won't shut up about Sonic 06, yes, we get that it's bad, but in 2014 you're really just beating a dead horse and it can get on some people's nerves.

You're missing the point. People are talking about bad female characters in videogames. To come out and say "We should talk about the good female characters instead" is being dismissive.

And I still don't understand why you think sexism isn't a problem in the videogame industry. It seems like you're just scared to lose

[Hakudamashi]

You think that a publisher pressured a developer to make a sexist game? Or that the writers just felt comfortable writing sexist characters? Uhh...yeah, maybe in extreme cases like Duke Nukem but I doubt that's happening most of the time. Most likely the writers just don't know that they're being sexist. That's why people are raising awareness so that developers will know better in the future.

Oooohhhhh, so it's a movement to make the developers who give a shit realise they made a mistake? Ok, I can get behind that.

You don't think that someone avoiding a game just because it has strong female characters is bad?

That's not really any of my business... If they're not into that, they're not into that.

There will always be schlock games out there, but that's not what games should be trying to be. If you're trying to make a good game (as most developers are) then you should be avoiding sexist tropes.

Agreed, along with other stereotypes. Although while I would like well written characters and scenarios, gameplay should be the primary concern.

But people do do this. The Feminist Frequency videos for example do show a few good examples in each video.

Well you've been going out of your way to find videos about this topic, I only watch the ones that come my way, which do not speak of good examples. So if I'm incorrect on that note, then I apologise.

So? As I said, just because it's a problem everywhere doesn't mean it's not worth discussing solely in the context of videogames. And either way, you don't think that we should be trying to reduce the number of clichés and stereotypes in our media? Why would you not want more "masterpieces"?

I would love every piece of entertainment to be a 10/10 in everyone's book, but when you have soo many people joining the industry making their art, you can't expect everyone to be on the level of James Cameron or Hideki Kamiya.
When I bring up "But it happens everywhere", it's not me trying to dismiss the issue, or to make light of the situation, I just want to point out that the issue is widespread and not so easy to fix. Different people come into the industry for different reasons with their different agendas, yes, some people want to make the best thing they can, but you do have those that are just in it for the money, and other such petty reasons. Yes, you can raise awareness so that the developers who do care will be more careful, but that's not gonna get rid of the problem.
By pointing out the problem is everyone, I just want to get across that this poison has reached deep, I did not intend to make your point moot, I am sorry.

You're missing the point. People are talking about bad female characters in videogames. To come out and say "We should talk about the good female characters instead" is being dismissive.

I don't view it as being dismissive, I view it as making people remember that we should be having fun with our videogames, and to spread the joy of the games that pleased us. I find dwelling on the bad to be unhealthy, unless it's being played for laughs.

Also, unrelated, but I have a personal issue that bad games like Ride to Hell and Sonic 06 get talked about and continue to be relevant years after they're made, but good games like Sonic Advance and Lunar Legend just get played and forgotten just cause there was nothing to bitch about.

And I still don't understand why you think sexism isn't a problem in the videogame industry.

When I say "It's a non-issue", it stems from a couple of things.
The fact that the issue is widespread for starters, it's not a videogame specific thing, so like, it's not a "videogame issue" it's an "entertainment issue".

Secondly, I've grown up with "strong" female leads, and avoided the crap(to the best of my abilities), from Final Fantasy 4 to Tales of Xillia, the many fighting games I've played right down to small games like Liberation Maiden. So as far as I'm aware, there are plenty of good female characters from good writers to go in conjuction with the bad female characters from bad writers. So when I see this "sexism in video games" being brought up, I just think it's a bunch of people whining, and as I mentioned before, I don't see these "femenists" brining up good examples to counteract all their bitching, which, admittedly, has made me grow to think light of the issue..

But the bottom line is, I play video games to have fun. I play video games for gameplay. Unless it's an RPG, a well written story is just a plus, not what I'm looking for, especially if I'm allowed to skip cutscenes.
If I'm no longer enjoying what I'm playing, I quit, as I did between the months of July till last month.

When I said "it's a non-issue", I guess the more appropriate thing to say was "I don't care".
Except about real women in the industry getting harassed, cause I care about that. The last case I heard was that red-head getting harassed sexually by that bearded guy on Cross-Counter(A fighting game event), and then the asshole had the nerve to say "It's apart of the culture", fuck him, I hope he gets his cock chopped off.

seems like you're just scared to lose

What?

[shadowDOESrock]

You think that a publisher pressured a developer to make a sexist game? Or that the writers just felt comfortable writing sexist characters? Uhh...yeah, maybe in extreme cases like Duke Nukem but I doubt that's happening most of the time. Most likely the writers just don't know that they're being sexist. That's why people are raising awareness so that developers will know better in the future.

Wait wait wait wait

That's less an direct issue of sexism, and more of an issue of a bad writer. That's like telling Ehren Kruger he's being sexist.

That's just immature writing from a not very good writer, that still lets his inner teen out, because 'look at this, dude, isn't this awesome?'.

Recently we had Last of Us, Remember Me, BioShock Infinite, Tomb Raider, Resident Evil 6 (before the DLCs anyway) and Revelations 2 comes with two female protags even - and, hell, even Halo 4. (Although many will disagree with me on that one) introduced many, many female spartans. And despite Cortana ultimately being nude, she wasn't sexualised. (Yes, those do not equal each other, in my opinion).

I do realise that this is an issue, but as big as people make it out to be. Obviously something like Hitman: Absolution is going to have the obligatory nude scene and save da gurl scenes.

Also, a gripe I have with this - and all other conversations about this topic - misogyny means hatred and/or distrust of women. The word is nowdays used as if it were a synonym for sexist, which it is not.

Games like Grand Theft Auto and Assassin's Creed don't need to solely target males. It would help if there were more female game designers working on these games.

Also also: I think we're being unfair to Assassin's Creed just for Unity.
This franchise had a game with a black, female protagonist not too long ago.

Also also also: Grand Theft Auto is satire of these issues and not inherently sexist.

And finally, I do not think the way it's being pushed right now is the right way. This will only end like Hollywood in the 90s, were we get the obligatory black guy sidekick in a main role. Because you'd be racist otherwise. (By the way, Hollywood is not getting under flak for not having enough 'multicutural, ethical casts'.)

[Elija2]

I would love every piece of entertainment to be a 10/10 in everyone's book, but when you have soo many people joining the industry making their art, you can't expect everyone to be on the level of James Cameron or Hideki Kamiya.
When I bring up "But it happens everywhere", it's not me trying to dismiss the issue, or to make light of the situation, I just want to point out that the issue is widespread and not so easy to fix. Different people come into the industry for different reasons with their different agendas, yes, some people want to make the best thing they can, but you do have those that are just in it for the money, and other such petty reasons. Yes, you can raise awareness so that the developers who do care will be more careful, but that's not gonna get rid of the problem.
By pointing out the problem is everyone, I just want to get across that this poison has reached deep, I did not intend to make your point moot, I am sorry.

Not being sexist isn't something that every developer should strive to be but may never reach, it's something that should be a baseline requirement when making a game. It's not like it costs money or is hard to exclude sexist tropes. Yes, the poison has reached deep, but it's not something that's hard to get out.

I don't view it as being dismissive, I view it as making people remember that we should be having fun with our videogames, and to spread the joy of the games that pleased us. I find dwelling on the bad to be unhealthy, unless it's being played for laughs.

Sometimes you have to dwell on the bad if you want things to improve.

When I said "it's a non-issue", I guess the more appropriate thing to say was "I don't care".

That's a terribly selfish viewpoint to have. You think we should just ignore all of these problems because they don't affect you?

What?

I may have fallen asleep on my keyboard.

Wait wait wait wait

That's less an direct issue of sexism, and more of an issue of a bad writer. That's like telling Ehren Kruger he's being sexist.

That's just immature writing from a not very good writer, that still lets his inner teen out, because 'look at this, dude, isn't this awesome?'.

Well, their writing is bad because it's sexist. And I don't think that someone is a bad writer just because they don't know how to write good female characters. It's possible that they excel at certain forms of writing and not others. But if you're gonna be writing female characters, maybe you should know how to write good ones.

I do realise that this is an issue, but as big as people make it out to be. Obviously something like Hitman: Absolution is going to have the obligatory nude scene and save da gurl scenes.

Also, a gripe I have with this - and all other conversations about this topic - misogyny means hatred and/or distrust of women. The word is nowdays used as if it were a synonym for sexist, which it is not.

I think you'd be surprised at how widespread sexism is in videogames. And why does a game like Hitman need a nude scene?

And yeah, misogyny probably isn't the proper word to use in this discussion.