That Feminist Gamer Girl Did a Thing (DERAILED)

[Hakudamashi]

Because it's a trope used in 90% of videogames that normalizes sexist beliefs. Imagine if in 90% of videogames the bad guy was a poor black man who deals illegal drugs, mugs innocent people, and loves friend chicken. These are all negative black stereotypes, but would you say "What's the problem? The person is a bad guy, I go kill them, and gameplay ensues" or would you point out the racism?

I would do the former good sir.

Their integral role is to get kidnapped and do nothing. In every game.

'Cept they do, do something.

Well yeah, obviously the game tells us about how much they love each other because that's their excuse for having Mario save Peach all the time. It's a dumb over-used excuse and what it boils down to is just another damsel in distress trope.

There is nothing dumb about saving someone you love.

Killing people is a male power fantasy. People see dudes killing bad guys and they think "Wow, that dude is badass."

That is a sexist gender stereotype that all men are power junkies and I'm offended.

No woman sees Peach being kidnapped and goes "Wow, what an awesome character."

No, they see Peach with a castle, riches, and a loyal man always doing her bidding and then go "Wow, what an awesome character."

Those stereotypes are mainly perpetuated by other men though. When men see other guys being emotional they say "Stop being such a pussy." and that creates a stigma that men can't have feelings. When men hear about other men being raped they go "Whatever, I bet he enjoyed it." and that creates a stigma that men can't be raped or that they enjoy being raped. Women rarely perpetuate these stereotypes.

Sure
Cause the "damsel in distress" trope isn't perpetuated by women who always want a man to save them from their troubles, and the image that women must be pretty and materialistic aren't perpetuated by women who are pretty and materialistic...
And women totally don't perpetuate the thought that men should be emotionless and obedient...

That's not the point. Men think that you shouldn't hit a woman because they are weaker, but hitting a weaker man is okay. This is common because media constantly portrays women as helpless victims and men as their heroes.

That stigma came about because women are indeed weaker.
It is not common because of the media, it is common because that's how it's been throughout history, and the mindset has been carried over across generations.

[Elija2]

I would do the former good sir.

Seriously? You wouldn't even bat an eyelash at a blatantly racist stereotype being depicted in the majority of videogames?

'Cept they do, do something.

What do they do?

There is nothing dumb about saving someone you love.

I never said that, but using it as an excuse to overuse a sexist trope is dumb.

That is a sexist gender stereotype that all men are power junkies and I'm offended.

You're right, but men are conditioned to think that being a power-hungry killer is cool. It's almost as if constant portrayals of this in media has affected their way of thinking.

No, they see Peach with a castle, riches, and a loyal man always doing her bidding and then go "Wow, what an awesome character."

And then they see her being kidnapped in every game and they go "Oh, come on."

Sure
Cause the "damsel in distress" trope isn't perpetuated by women who always want a man to save them from their troubles, and the image that women must be pretty and materialistic aren't perpetuated by women who are pretty and materialistic...
And women totally don't perpetuate the thought that men should be emotionless and obedient...

I disagree about the damsel in distress trope being perpetuated by women. How many women do you think even write these stories?

And again, women have been conditioned to think that they must be beautiful. The media perpetuates this by only casting beautiful women in movies and TV shows. Women themselves do perpetuate this too and it's pretty sad.

Romance movies for women almost always show the man being emotional. As for obedient, I don't know what that's supposed to mean. It's not sexist to want your man to listen to you.

That stigma came about because women are indeed weaker.
It is not common because of the media, it is common because that's how it's been throughout history, and the mindset has been carried over across generations.

It's a terrible mindset and the media has only perpetuated it.

[Hakudamashi]

Seriously? You wouldn't even bat an eyelash at a blatantly racist stereotype being depicted in the majority of videogames?

No, I wouldn't, cause it's not important.

What do they do?

As I said before, Peach sends Mario items, and Zelda, well, depends on which Zelda you're talking about.

I never said that, but using it as an excuse to overuse a sexist trope is dumb.

So wanting to save someone you love is dumb? The act of saving someone you love is dumb? To use a story about saving someone you love is dumb?
Cause if that's not what you are saying, then you're implying that "I love her" is a dumb excuse to use the trope, and thus would be ok to use the trope for another reason, like just for sex.

You're right, but men are conditioned to think that being a power-hungry killer is cool. It's almost as if constant portrayals of this in media has affected their way of thinking.

No, that is a product of bad parenting. The ESRB ratings aren't there for show.

And then they see her being kidnapped in every game and they go "Oh, come on."

They see her get kidnapped and rescued every game and go "Mario's soo reliable".

I disagree about the damsel in distress trope being perpetuated by women. How many women do you think even write these stories?

Do you even fan fiction? And you're gonna tell me you don't know of novels written by women of some big hunk of man sweeping them off their feet and saving them from all their troubles? Y'know, essentially "Damsel in distress" from the woman's point of view.

And again, women have been conditioned to think that they must be beautiful.

I would also blame this more on bad parenting.

The media perpetuates this by only casting beautiful women in movies and TV shows.

Sure, has nothing to do with their acting talent, it's not like that requires training or anything. And you can totally just walk into an audition just cause you're pretty and nothing else.

Women themselves do perpetuate this too and it's pretty sad.

Yes, it is sad that bad people exist, but what'cha gonna do?

Romance movies for women almost always show the man being emotional. As for obedient, I don't know what that's supposed to mean. It's not sexist to want your man to listen to you.

Sure, it's totally not sexist when the man's gotta do everything and anything the woman demands, but god forbid the man objects to a decision she made, or wants to hang out with his bros.

It's a terrible mindset and the media has only perpetuated it.

It is not a terrible mindset, you shouldn't go about hitting women, or anyone.
I believe one must strive to resolve their conflicts without violence, it should only be used as a last resort.
Or when someone comes at you with a knife.

[Elija2]

No, I wouldn't, cause it's not important.

Yes it is. It normalizes racist depictions of black people, just like how sexist portrayals of women normalize sexist behaviour. Also, it's freaking racist.

As I said before, Peach sends Mario items, and Zelda, well, depends on which Zelda you're talking about.

I already explained this too. It's dumb that they're able to help the hero but not themselves, even when they're the ones being kidnapped. But now I feel like we're going in circles.

So wanting to save someone you love is dumb? The act of saving someone you love is dumb? To use a story about saving someone you love is dumb?
Cause if that's not what you are saying, then you're implying that "I love her" is a dumb excuse to use the trope, and thus would be ok to use the trope for another reason, like just for sex.

I'm saying that overuse of the trope is dumb, no matter the excuse.

No, that is a product of bad parenting. The ESRB ratings aren't there for show.

Oh come on, parents aren't responsible for everything their kid does. Besides, media influences people of all ages.

They see her get kidnapped and rescued every game and go "Mario's soo reliable".

Yes. Mario's the hero. Mario's the cool guy. Peach is just his reward.

Do you even fan fiction? And you're gonna tell me you don't know of novels written by women of some big hunk of man sweeping them off their feet and saving them from all their troubles? Y'know, essentially "Damsel in distress" from the woman's point of view.

In those stories the woman is usually the main character and she actually does things outside of being kidnapped. Even though she does get saved by a man, she's more than just his reward. In Mario and Zelda, Peach and Zelda are merely a tool to get Mario or Link's adventure going.

Sure, has nothing to do with their acting talent, it's not like that requires training or anything. And you can totally just walk into an audition just cause you're pretty and nothing else.

Oh, so all good actors just happen to be beautiful. If there aren't any below-average-looking women on a show it's because all of the ones that auditioned sucked.

Yes, it is sad that bad people exist, but what'cha gonna do?

Raise awareness and try to change things?

Sure, it's totally not sexist when the man's gotta do everything and anything the woman demands, but god forbid the man objects to a decision she made, or wants to hang out with his bros.

How is that sexist? If anything, it makes the woman look bad by portraying her as a nagging girlfriend.

[Chimmy Chonga]

Yes. Mario's the hero. Mario's the cool guy. Peach is just his reward.

It's
a
2D
platforming
game.

Nobody plays those for the story.

[Hakudamashi]

Yes it is. It normalizes racist depictions of black people, just like how sexist portrayals of women normalize sexist behaviour. Also, it's freaking racist.

Yeeeaaaahhh, no. All I see is a bad person who's a drug dealer, who just happens to be black and male, and I don't think the situation would improve or lessen if you changed his skin colour.
Racist? Nah, it'd be racist if they said he's a bad man because he's black.

I already explained this too. It's dumb that they're able to help the hero but not themselves, even when they're the ones being kidnapped. But now I feel like we're going in circles.

Can you ride a carrier pigeon?

I'm saying that overuse of the trope is dumb, no matter the excuse.

Sooooo, saving someone you love is dumb? The very concept of saving someone you love is dumb? Alot of people using the concept of saving someone you love because they find value in it or otherwise is dumb? To want to save someone you love is dumb?

Oh come on, parents aren't responsible for everything their kid does. Besides, media influences people of all ages.

A parent is responsible for their child.
A parent's duty is to protect them, teach them right from wrong, teach them their values, and help them better understand the world.
Yes, a parent cannot control everything that happens to them, but they can guide them to a way of thinking that when they are approached by circumstances that agree or disagree with their beliefs, they can make their own decision, and choose to do what they think is right, and if they're stumped, and can't make a decision on a circumstance, then the parent should be there to help them in whatever way they can.
There is a difference between the parent that explains porn to a child, the parent that says porn is bad, and the parent that says porn is great.

Yes. Mario's the hero. Mario's the cool guy. Peach is just his reward.

Peach is not the reward, she's the ruler, and Mario's gotta save her no matter what cause she owns him and everything. Mario is Peach's reward for being the royalty that rules all the things. Doesn't got to work a day in her life but everything's just given to her, and she has a man that will do everything she asks without question or fail.
Mario's not a cool guy, he's just a mindless drone that follows the bidding of his master.

In those stories the woman is usually the main character and she actually does things outside of being kidnapped. Even though she does get saved by a man, she's more than just his reward. In Mario and Zelda, Peach and Zelda are merely a tool to get Mario or Link's adventure going.

Well no shit, that's what "from their perspective" means, it doesn't magically change the fact that they're the "damsel in distress" that you hate soo much.
And guess what? In the spin-offs, things get told from Peach and Zelda's perspective at times, and y'know what else? They do stuff, shocking I know, perspective changes things.
So the main games are told from Mario and Link's perspectives, the main characters, that you play as, and follow, to play the game.

Oh, so all good actors just happen to be beautiful. If there aren't any below-average-looking women on a show it's because all of the ones that auditioned sucked.

Are you seriously gonna rule out that possibility?
Are you gonna rule out that maybe below average women looking women don't want to act?
Are you implying that a level of beauty is required for all acting careers?

Raise awareness and try to change things?

I'm sure I said this before somewhere, but if your goal is to raise awareness for the people that give a shit, then that's totally fine.

How is that sexist? If anything, it makes the woman look bad by portraying her as a nagging girlfriend.

It's sexist because it always portrays thee woman as being in the right.
A man having an opinion and standing up to his woman makes him a monster, a woman being a cunt is some kind of hero and someone to root for.

[Elija2]

It's
a
2D
platforming
game.

Nobody plays those for the story.

You're missing the point. Mario is only one of the many examples of games that use this trope.

Yeeeaaaahhh, no. All I see is a bad person who's a drug dealer, who just happens to be black and male, and I don't think the situation would improve or lessen if you changed his skin colour.
Racist? Nah, it'd be racist if they said he's a bad man because he's black.

So you wouldn't think it's racist unless the game explicitly told you "by the way, we're being racist"?

Can you ride a carrier pigeon?

It's Mario, why not?

Sooooo, saving someone you love is dumb? The very concept of saving someone you love is dumb? Alot of people using the concept of saving someone you love because they find value in it or otherwise is dumb? To want to save someone you love is dumb?

That's not what the trope is. The trope is having a woman be a damsel in distress at the expense of her own characterization.

A parent is responsible for their child.
A parent's duty is to protect them, teach them right from wrong, teach them their values, and help them better understand the world.
Yes, a parent cannot control everything that happens to them, but they can guide them to a way of thinking that when they are approached by circumstances that agree or disagree with their beliefs, they can make their own decision, and choose to do what they think is right, and if they're stumped, and can't make a decision on a circumstance, then the parent should be there to help them in whatever way they can.
There is a difference between the parent that explains porn to a child, the parent that says porn is bad, and the parent that says porn is great.

You're not a bad parent if you don't teach your kid not to like action heroes.

Peach is not the reward, she's the ruler, and Mario's gotta save her no matter what cause she owns him and everything. Mario is Peach's reward for being the royalty that rules all the things. Doesn't got to work a day in her life but everything's just given to her, and she has a man that will do everything she asks without question or fail.
Mario's not a cool guy, he's just a mindless drone that follows the bidding of his master.

All of those details about Peach aren't added for the sake of characterization, they're added specifically to make Mario's actions make sense. That's the problem. It doesn't matter if she's some great ruler because we never even see any of that.

Mario saves the princess through his own volition, he's not treated as her slave.

Well no shit, that's what "from their perspective" means, it doesn't magically change the fact that they're the "damsel in distress" that you hate soo much.
And guess what? In the spin-offs, things get told from Peach and Zelda's perspective at times, and y'know what else? They do stuff, shocking I know, perspective changes things.
So the main games are told from Mario and Link's perspectives, the main characters, that you play as, and follow, to play the game.

Games don't need to be from a certain character's perspective to give them good characterization. Novels do more than just show the girl getting saved and games can do that too.

Are you seriously gonna rule out that possibility?
Are you gonna rule out that maybe below average women looking women don't want to act?
Are you implying that a level of beauty is required for all acting careers?

Um, yes I'm totally ruling out that possibility. You're being naive if you think that less-attractive women not getting acting jobs is just a coincidence.

I'm sure I said this before somewhere, but if your goal is to raise awareness for the people that give a shit, then that's totally fine.

Then what the hell are you complaining about?

It's sexist because it always portrays thee woman as being in the right.
A man having an opinion and standing up to his woman makes him a monster, a woman being a cunt is some kind of hero and someone to root for.

A character being portrayed negatively doesn't make things sexist against them. It's only sexist if it's a common trope that is used exclusively with their gender. Many movies do the reverse where the man is demanding toward the woman.

[Hakudamashi]

So you wouldn't think it's racist unless the game explicitly told you "by the way, we're being racist"?

Basically
If the game doesn't draw attention to it, why should I?

It's Mario, why not?

I'm not talking about Mario, I'm asking you.

That's not what the trope is. The trope is having a woman be a damsel in distress at the expense of her own characterization.

... Peach and Zelda have characterization, so what's the problem again?

You're not a bad parent if you don't teach your kid not to like action heroes.

You are a bad parent if you don't watch it with them and answer whatever questions they have, and don't scold them appropriately when they try to act it out.
That "PG: Parental Guidance" rating isn't there for show.

All of those details about Peach aren't added for the sake of characterization, they're added specifically to make Mario's actions make sense. That's the problem. It doesn't matter if she's some great ruler because we never even see any of that.

Mario saves the princess through his own volition, he's not treated as her slave.

Yeah no, this section of this discussion is cause you said, I can only assume, what you hear women around you say about you, and I'm responding with what I hear women say about Peach. Some look down on her, some look up to her, both equally problematic if you ask me.

Games don't need to be from a certain character's perspective to give them good characterization. Novels do more than just show the girl getting saved and games can do that too.

And Mario and Zelda games do show them more than just getting saved, they have characterization...

Um, yes I'm totally ruling out that possibility. You're being naive if you think that less-attractive women not getting acting jobs is just a coincidence.

Then what the hell are you complaining about?

This started cause I said I disagreed with Anita on Peach on Zelda. I'm explaining my views and you're arguing against them.

A character being portrayed negatively doesn't make things sexist against them. It's only sexist if it's a common trope that is used exclusively with their gender. Many movies do the reverse where the man is demanding toward the woman.

In every romantic comedy I've seen with my family, for the past 15 years of my life, if a woman is being demanding toward the man, she's the one you're to be rooting for, the "hero", but when a man is being demanding toward the woman, he's the one you're to be rooting against, the "villain".

Are you telling me that's not often enough to be called a sexist trope?

[Elija2]

Basically
If the game doesn't draw attention to it, why should I?

How is using blatant stereotypes not drawing attention to it?

And obviously no game is gonna explicitly call out it's own racism/sexism.

I'm not talking about Mario, I'm asking you.

Um...no?

... Peach and Zelda have characterization, so what's the problem again?

Their characterizations only exist to contextualize the hero's actions, never their own lives. The few bits of characterization they have that don't do this are so superficial that they barely qualify as characterization (e.g. Peach likes baking cakes).

You are a bad parent if you don't watch it with them and answer whatever questions they have, and don't scold them appropriately when they try to act it out.
That "PG: Parental Guidance" rating isn't there for show.

This isn't about acting it out, it's about thinking it's cool. You're saying that people are bad parents if their kid thinks that someone who kills bad guys is cool.

Yeah no, this section of this discussion is cause you said, I can only assume, what you hear women around you say about you, and I'm responding with what I hear women say about Peach. Some look down on her, some look up to her, both equally problematic if you ask me.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

And Mario and Zelda games do show them more than just getting saved, they have characterization...

See above.

Queen Latifah isn't attractive?

Regardless, for every one less-attractive female celebrity you show me, I could show you 10 that are attractive. I can't believe you're even trying to argue this.

In every romantic comedy I've seen with my family, for the past 15 years of my life, if a woman is being demanding toward the man, she's the one you're to be rooting for, the "hero", but when a man is being demanding toward the woman, he's the one you're to be rooting against, the "villain".

Are you telling me that's not often enough to be called a sexist trope?

It's just as common for the woman to be seen as the bad guy in this situation, so no it's not sexist.

[Hakudamashi]

How is using blatant stereotypes not drawing attention to it?

And obviously no game is gonna explicitly call out it's own racism/sexism.

Simply using a black man as a drug dealer isn't calling attention to anything. If they go out of their way to point out that he's black, then that's when I have a problem, unless they're going somewhere with it.

Um...no?

Exactly
Cause a carrier pidgeon is used to carry messages, not people. A carrier pigeon can carry small items in and out fine, they're small, hard to notice, hard to catch, and pretty quick, but they can't carry a whole person, that's just not in their power.
If you make a carrier pigeon, with all these strengths, and can just as easily carry a whole person, that'd be a pretty powerful tool, soo powerful, why wouldn't everyone use it?
Why wouldn't everyone just use the carrier pigeons to just travel to where they wanted? Wouldn't that be really convenient? Why would anyone bother walking anywhere when you can just have this almighty bird just carry you everywhere?
Now imagine if something like that existed in a video game. Would that be exciting to watch? Or play?

This isn't about acting it out, it's about thinking it's cool. You're saying that people are bad parents if their kid thinks that someone who kills bad guys is cool.

Well thinking it's cool is harmless, it's especially harmless if he understands why it's entertainment.

Their characterizations only exist to contextualize the hero's actions, never their own lives. The few bits of characterization they have that don't do this are so superficial that they barely qualify as characterization (e.g. Peach likes baking cakes).

Confirmed, Eli is racist against bakers.
So, Peach doing things with Mario is not cause she wants to, it's only to better Mario?
And Peach doing things without Mario are...what? Not good enough? Well unfortunately for you, that's a matter of preference, cause it seems to be good enough for a lot of people, myself included
I can tell you that she's soft spoken, gentle, graceful, a bit of a ditz, enjoys gardens and likes baking, all I can gather from what little we see of her in the main games, and the spin-offs, when she has more screen time, we learn even more about her, like how she's surprisingly quick to anger when Mario's not around.
Are you telling me none of that matters to you? That's not enough to identify who Princess Peach Toadstool is? I'm sorry, but if that's the case, then that's your problem, and I can't help you with that.

And what of Zelda? Each Zelda is characterized, and each Zelda is different, soo much so that the fans can do things like this:

For better or worse, each Zelda is identifiable as a person, because they get the characterization while they're active, but if that's not enough for you, then I can't help you.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

You say women looked down on Peach cause she's always getting kidnapped, I say women look up to Peach despite her always getting kidnapped
I'm pointing out it goes both ways.

Queen Latifah isn't attractive?

Regardless, for every one less-attractive female celebrity you show me, I could show you 10 that are attractive. I can't believe you're even trying to argue this.

You said  below average

Sure, you may can name more above average women, but that's not the point, the point is I can make a list of below average looking women that have, or had been on TV or movies, I may not be able to tell you their names, but that's cause I'm not a movie guy, but I certaintly remember their faces.
And they got their through their hard work, training, and going for the castings that acknowledge them

Or, do they not matter simply because there are more above average women interested in acting?
Does the labour of the hardworking sloth not matter because there are more rabbits working?
Is a company racist if it hires more white men than black men? Pfft, of course it is. It's totally not possible that the more qualified men just so happened to be white, yup, has to be racism.

It's just as common for the woman to be seen as the bad guy in this situation, so no it's not sexist.

No, no it's not, you can't tell me it's just as common.

Are you also gonna tell me it's common for women to be retarded in sitcoms?
Cause I remember back in ye olde days of Jimmy Neutron, Whenever there's a husband and wife, the husband is always the less mature, borderline retarded one, while the wife is always the more mature responsible one.
Oh, but they have that one episode where the wife goofs up, that makes everything better right?

[shadowDOESrock]

Regardless, for every one less-attractive female celebrity you show me, I could show you 10 that are attractive.

This also counts for men.
No one wants to watch ugly people.

[Elija2]

Simply using a black man as a drug dealer isn't calling attention to anything. If they go out of their way to point out that he's black, then that's when I have a problem, unless they're going somewhere with it.

It is if the majority of games use the stereotype. That's the thing. Examined alone, Peach being a stereotypical damsel is harmless and not indicative of anything, but when the stereotypical depiction is a common trope in gaming then it's indicative of widespread sexist beliefs held by game developers.

Exactly
Cause a carrier pidgeon is used to carry messages, not people. A carrier pigeon can carry small items in and out fine, they're small, hard to notice, hard to catch, and pretty quick, but they can't carry a whole person, that's just not in their power.
If you make a carrier pigeon, with all these strengths, and can just as easily carry a whole person, that'd be a pretty powerful tool, soo powerful, why wouldn't everyone use it?
Why wouldn't everyone just use the carrier pigeons to just travel to where they wanted? Wouldn't that be really convenient? Why would anyone bother walking anywhere when you can just have this almighty bird just carry you everywhere?
Now imagine if something like that existed in a video game. Would that be exciting to watch? Or play?

I think you're overanalyzing this. It's a Mario game, it's not aiming for realism.

And this is just a false equivalence. Or are you saying that a game where Peach isn't the damsel in distress wouldn't be fun to play?

Well thinking it's cool is harmless, it's especially harmless if he understands why it's entertainment.

It's not harmless if people begin to think that all men must be tough.

Confirmed, Eli is racist against bakers.
So, Peach doing things with Mario is not cause she wants to, it's only to better Mario?
And Peach doing things without Mario are...what? Not good enough? Well unfortunately for you, that's a matter of preference, cause it seems to be good enough for a lot of people, myself included
I can tell you that she's soft spoken, gentle, graceful, a bit of a ditz, enjoys gardens and likes baking, all I can gather from what little we see of her in the main games, and the spin-offs, when she has more screen time, we learn even more about her, like how she's surprisingly quick to anger when Mario's not around.
Are you telling me none of that matters to you? That's not enough to identify who Princess Peach Toadstool is? I'm sorry, but if that's the case, then that's your problem, and I can't help you with that.

And what of Zelda? Each Zelda is characterized, and each Zelda is different, soo much so that the fans can do things like this:

For better or worse, each Zelda is identifiable as a person, because they get the characterization while they're active, but if that's not enough for you, then I can't help you.

Well yeah, what else does she do in the main games? In SMB1 Peach does nothing. In SMB3 Peach sends Mario items to help him on his quest. In SMW Peach does nothing. In SM64 Peach calls Mario over to her castle so that he can discover she's been captured. In SMS Mario and Peach go on vacation so that Mario can be accused of vandalizing the island. Peach has an opportunity here to attempt to clear Mario's name and actually help out but she doesn't. Peach is later accused of being Bowser Jr.'s mom which she just accepts. In NSMB1, NSMB2, NSMBWii, and NSMBU Peach does nothing. In SMG1 and SMG2 Peach calls Mario over to her castle so that he can witness her being captured. In SM3DL Peach does nothing.

Zelda does get more characterization, but she still gets relegated to being the damsel in distress when we know she is stronger than that. In OoT Zelda becomes Sheik who is a strong and helpful female character. But of course as soon as she turns back into Zelda she gets captured. It's the same thing in WW. Tetra is this strong and cool character, and then as soon as she turns into Zelda she becomes helpless and gets captured.

And come on, the original LoZ and LttP didn't give Zelda any characterization.

You say women looked down on Peach cause she's always getting kidnapped, I say women look up to Peach despite her always getting kidnapped
I'm pointing out it goes both ways.

I doubt that many people look up to Peach and wish they could be her.

You said  below average

Sure, you may can name more above average women, but that's not the point, the point is I can make a list of below average looking women that have, or had been on TV or movies, I may not be able to tell you their names, but that's cause I'm not a movie guy, but I certaintly remember their faces.
And they got their through their hard work, training, and going for the castings that acknowledge them

Or, do they not matter simply because there are more above average women interested in acting?
Does the labour of the hardworking sloth not matter because there are more rabbits working?
Is a company racist if it hires more white men than black men? Pfft, of course it is. It's totally not possible that the more qualified men just so happened to be white, yup, has to be racism.

I'm saying that less-attractive women are at a disadvantage if they want to be successful. They either need to pretty themselves up or deal with being typecasted as an ugly character.

Why is it that black people are usually less qualified than white people? Because they are systemically disadvantaged in society and aren't given the chance to have the same quality of life as white people. But that's an entirely different discussion that I'd rather not get into.

No, no it's not, you can't tell me it's just as common.

Are you also gonna tell me it's common for women to be retarded in sitcoms?
Cause I remember back in ye olde days of Jimmy Neutron, Whenever there's a husband and wife, the husband is always the less mature, borderline retarded one, while the wife is always the more mature responsible one.
Oh, but they have that one episode where the wife goofs up, that makes everything better right?

No, that's a common sexist trope.

This also counts for men.
No one wants to watch ugly people.

But men don't need to pretty themselves up as much as women. Men are allowed to look average.

[shadowDOESrock]

But men don't need to pretty themselves up as much as women. Men are allowed to look average.

No, they're not. Unless they're comedians, in which case the same thing also applies to the females.

[Hakudamashi]

It is if the majority of games use the stereotype.

No, it's not, it's only a problem cause you make it one. A drug dealer simply being black doesn't mean anything till someone, within the world, brings it to everyone's attention that he's black. If the story and characters don't care that he's black, why should I?

Examined alone, Peach being a stereotypical damsel is harmless and not indicative of anything,

Unfortunately for you, that's where I start and stop with my entertainment. If the game or whatever doesn't draw attention to it, then neither will I.

but when the stereotypical depiction is a common trope in gaming then it's indicative of widespread sexist beliefs held by game developers.

Aaaaaand, ya lost me.
It's just a way to start the game, saving someone you love is probably the first thing that comes to mind. Having a masters in story telling is not a requirement to make a game.

I think you're overanalyzing this. It's a Mario game, it's not aiming for realism.

You're right, it's not aiming for realism
It's not aiming for sexism either
It's just a fun video game franchise, with a very simple, and minimal story.

And this is just a false equivalence.

No it's not
You said Peach can send items, therefore she can escape.
And I'm saying it's like someone trapped uses a carrier pigeon to send a message, sure the pigeon can go in and out fine, but it doesn't mean she can.
Whatever method Peach is using to send the items, clearly she can't use it to escape. If it were that easy, she would've done so.

Or are you saying that a game where Peach isn't the damsel in distress wouldn't be fun to play?

I dunno how you came to that, buuuut:
Super Paper Mario, Mario Tennis, Mario Kart, Super Mario RPG, Super Smash Bros., Super Princess Peach, Super Mario 3D World I played and enjoyed, so no, I'm not saying that, at all.

.
Well yeah, what else does she do in the main games? In SMB1 Peach does nothing. In SMB3 Peach sends Mario items to help him on his quest. In SMW Peach does nothing. In SM64 Peach calls Mario over to her castle so that he can discover she's been captured. In SMS Mario and Peach go on vacation so that Mario can be accused of vandalizing the island. Peach has an opportunity here to attempt to clear Mario's name and actually help out but she doesn't. Peach is later accused of being Bowser Jr.'s mom which she just accepts. In NSMB1, NSMB2, NSMBWii, and NSMBU Peach does nothing. In SMG1 and SMG2 Peach calls Mario over to her castle so that he can witness her being captured. In SM3DL Peach does nothing.

Sounds like you personally just don't like Peach, which is fine.

Zelda does get more characterization, but she still gets relegated to being the damsel in distress when we know she is stronger than that. In OoT Zelda becomes Sheik who is a strong and helpful female character. But of course as soon as she turns back into Zelda she gets captured. It's the same thing in WW. Tetra is this strong and cool character, and then as soon as she turns into Zelda she becomes helpless and gets captured.

In the case of Sheik, That was cause Ganondorf couldn't find her, cause disguise and magic n' shit.
In the case of Tetra, that was cause Ganondorf couldn't find her, cause disguise and magic n' shit.
You don't fuck with Ganondorf man, cause he's not a man that fucks around.

Besides, wasn't your argument that she had no characterization?

And come on, the original LoZ and LttP didn't give Zelda any characterization.

Not enough for you, but enough for most Zelda fans.

I doubt that many people look up to Peach and wish they could be her.

Word of advice, don't visit Jamaica, you'd probably have a heart attack.

I'm saying that less-attractive women are at a disadvantage if they want to be successful. They either need to pretty themselves up or deal with being typecasted as an ugly character.

That is just incorrect, in every way.

Why is it that black people are usually less qualified than white people?

I was being hypothe-

Because they are systemically disadvantaged in society and aren't given the chance to have the same quality of life as white people.

No, that's a common sexist trope.

Oh, well, we agree on something. But my viewpoint remains the same, if the show doesn't bring attention to it, neither will I.

But men don't need to pretty themselves up as much as women. Men are allowed to look average.

Men are not allowed to look average, men have to pretty themselves up too when on TV.
It may not be as difficult since most men prefer to keep their hair short, and they don't have bras to worry about, but they have to be presentable on camera just like women do.

[Chimmy Chonga]